Deborah Lipstadt keeps an eye on anti-Semitism. She’s been busy

Deborah Lipstadt came to her job as U.S. envoy to monitor and combat anti-Semitism with a wealth of credentials and a lifetime of experience. Her authority as a historian of the Holocaust had not only won awards, but also a historical judgment by a British court against David Irving, the Holocaust denier who sued Lipstadt for defamation after she called him one.

But on October 7, 2023, the world’s attention shifted to a new horror, answered by a war that requires, as Lipstadt put it in a recent interview, “that you have more than one idea in your head at the same time.” Lipstadt spoke to TIME about how her job has changed and how she sees the response to the Israeli-Hamas war. This interview has been edited for length and clarity.

You are the president’s special envoy to monitor and combat anti-Semitism. How are you? Business is good, and I’m the only one in government who wants a recession (in my field).

Does this mean that your work has become easier or more difficult in the past year? When I took office, my very first speech was about the need to get people to take anti-Semitism seriously. “The Jews made it! What’s the problem?” – I’m less bothered by that now. I hear of people saying to their twelve-year-old grandson, who is wearing a yarmulke, ‘Put on a baseball cap. For safety reasons.” On the Upper East Side of Manhattan.

You grew up when Israel was the underdog. Entire generations knew it for the first time as an occupier. I was there during the Six Day War. I was a kid, but we didn’t know what was going to happen. That profile has changed dramatically. At the same time, there is still intense hatred among many entities surrounding Israel that want to see its downfall.

How can one distinguish between criticizing Israel and being anti-Semitic? Holding Jews around the world responsible for what happens in Israel is anti-Semitism. But if criticism of Israel’s policies were anti-Semitism, the hundreds of thousands of Israelis protesting in the streets on Saturday evening would be anti-Semites.

Your academic work focuses on the Holocaust. Is hearing about what is happening in Gaza described as a genocide that in any way gives rise to genocide? There is a definition of genocide. You can say this is a tragedy; Many people in Gaza are not Hamas supporters. You can say that the suffering is immense and without apparent end. But that is not genocide.

Read more: The new anti-Semitism

Between what happened in Israel on October 7 and then in Gaza, it can sometimes feel like the traumas are competing with each other. There are certainly competing traumas. I don’t get into competitive suffering. Your two compressed molars aren’t making my molars feel any better. I don’t think it will take you anywhere. We’re talking about responding to an attack. The 1,200 deaths on October 7 are (as a percentage of the population) as many as 48,000 Americans. What if someone had told us to sit still and not respond after 9/11? If someone hits, you have to hit back.

Did you just say we? That’s right. That’s a good point. I spoke both as an envoy for Joe Biden — who flew there after the attack — and, yes, I also speak as a Jew.

Do you think Jewish people in general feel that their fate is tied to that of Israel? I think some Jews do. Some Jews believe that if something were to happen to Israel, they would be less safe in the world. There are many Jews who think this way.

Does it work the other way around? If Israel is delegitimized – a big word within Israel – will Jews be more vulnerable? I think so. I think in many places yes. And we have to think about it too. Do you want to talk about a genocide? Talk about the genocide of the Uighurs.

That doesn’t happen on camera, though, does it? The Chinese took care of that. But if someone found a group of Chinese nationals and beat them up (in retaliation), we would be shocked.

Rachel Weisz you played in Denialthe film in which you are sued for defamation by a Holocaust denier. Are you still in touch? We email. After I was appointed, she told the producers to call her ambassador. She took the role very seriously. Her father fled Hungary and her mother was born in Vienna to a Jewish father, and they had to leave. So she came at this very personally.